Another thing to look into for accuracy upgrades is the Tano Koba Twist barrel
After reading MANY topics discussing the effectiveness of these barrels as null, I decided to look into it more.
I have compiled "a few" quotes, testimonies and tests on them to save space on my bookmarks and your time searching.
If you are the original author of a quote please tell me and I will give you credit, or ask if you want it removed.
Any more information, pictures/video of tests with different guns, power levels and other variables will be HIGHLY appreciated. a-famerican.gif shh, Im Canadian...
I am very convinced these barrels work at their recommended energy levels, I will update when I get my 1j spring and tk barrel for my vsr clone (In a few months unfortunately, being 14 has it's drawbacks)
I will provide a video as well as pictures, I have my stock performance already documented.
Now, if you have been wondering, how do these things work?
Let's have ryanm from airsoft retreat explain.
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I recently posted about this in another thread, and have visual aids.
All bbs bounce in the barrel, regardless of fps, regardless of the barrel. The TK barrel attempts to control the bounce path of the bb using the channels of air to push the bb towards specific bounce points. Making the bounce path predictable and reducing the number of possible exit paths makes it more consistent. For example:
As you can see, even small changes in velocity affect the bounce path through the barrel, and no gun shoots the same fps every time. This is reduced by the use of a tighter bore, where the possible exit paths of the bb are reduced to a narrower cone. As you can see in the lower half of the illustration, a standard smoothbore allows a bb to bounce seemingly randomly, allowing an unlimited number of exit paths. The TK twist barrel attempts to reduce the number of possible exit paths, by "encouraging" the bounce path to converge, leaving only 6 possible exit paths. A smaller number of possible exit paths mean a more consistent shot, and consistency is accuracy.
The TK Twist barrel uses rifling to allow air to move past the bb at a faster rate within small channels. These channels of air produce a barrier, which push the bb when it tries to enter them. The reason higher fps doesn't work is because at certain energies, the force of the bb is greater than the force of the channel of air, so the bb pushes through the air channel and bounces wherever it wants. When you do that, you not only lose the benefits of the TK Twist barrel, it's worse because the construction of the surface of the inner barrel allows for even more random bounces than a smoothbore, so accuracy would actually be worse than a smoothbore of the same inner diameter (and construction quality).
Within the recommended energy range, the TK Twist is supposed to work very well, but there is absolutely no reason to even consider one if you intend to go over the max recommended fps.
All of the above illustrations are both simplified and exaggerated in order to make the effects being described more apparent.
HTH, ryanm
Here's a well known testimony by a respected airsoft Canada mod.
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After years of hearing and reading endless debates about Tanio Koba Twist inner barrels, and after years of hunting for them, I've finally acquired a couple of them in various lengths for various guns from AEGs to GBBs.
Here are my initial findings:
These inner barrels shoot STRAIGHT. They have an extremely predictable, flat and straight flight trajectory. Where standard hop up will cause the BB to gently curve up before dropping, TWIST (or cyclone) inner barrels will cause the BB to go extremely straight for an even further effective range before dropping.
To set a clear and definitive answer for all the debates that have floated on the internet for years:
Q1. "How is it physically possible to have a rifled barrel impart a spin on the BB and combine it with the Magnus effect of the hop-up? It is two totally different axes of rotation!"
A1. Actually, the barrel ISN'T "rifled" in the standard sense of a real gun. Yes, the inner barrel has spiral rifling grooves in it, but the BB does NOT touch the groove. The purpose of the TWIST inner barrel is not to put a rifling spin on the BB. It is to put a "cyclone" of air around the BB, to help float it through the inner barrel and PREVENT the BB from touching the side walls of the inner barrel at all. The result of this is higher accuracy, more predictable trajectory and greater effective range.
Q2. "I've heard about power requirements for these inner barrels. Details?"
A2. What you've heard is true. The twist inside these inner barrels are optimized for guns that shoot NO MORE than 1 Joule or 330fps with 0.20g BBs. Some internet debates claim that if you have a higher powered gun, all you need to do is use heavier BBs to slow down the velocity of the shot. NOT TRUE. The air moving around the BB will still be beyond 1 Joule and it will affect the shot trajectory.
Q3. "What happens beyond 1 Joule or 330fps with 0.20g BBs?"
A3. Up to 330fps, the results of the shot and even the shots dropoff are very predictable, accurate and flat. Groupings remain tight with very little spread. However, once the velocity of the shot begins to exceed that limit, the shot starts to become unpredictable with increased spread. The higher the velocity, the greater the perceived spread.
Q4. "So how accurate are these inner barrels compared to other brands such as Prometheus, KM TN or Systema?"
A4. At this time, I have not done any quantitative comparitive range testing to get accuracy results. When used within its optimized power range, I can outright say that these inner barrels have a MUCH straighter trajectory, greater effective range and a generally much more predictive flight path than any other barrel I've used before.
There is a project underway for an indoor range test to compare various lengths of these barrels against other barrels at different power ratings (stock, 1Joule and 400+fps).
How do I like these inner barrels? I love them. I wish they worked well at 400fps. At 360fps, they are still very acceptable and I will take that in to consideration when using them in some of my guns.
But for now, I am FOR SURE putting these inner barrels into all my pistols and low powered AEGs.
Here's a pm from Killershot, also on airsoft retreat.
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Range is very nice but if you want to reach out to 200 feet (it is possible, I've done some research and asked around) you'll need to be prepared to take a nice lob shot. Accuracy is awesome for me but I will also give credit to my Firefly soft.. many people are against the Firefly soft since it seems to be a hit/miss thing.. you either get a good one or a bad one and I took the **** and I got a good one.. the reason I did that was also from asking around the Firefly seems to work best with the TK Twist (assuming you got a good one of course) but if you don't want to **** go for the Nineball. Both Firefly and Nineball can be purchased at TrinityAirsoft and the Firefly soft can also be purchased at AirsoftGI. Make sure you get the VSR/Pistol version.
If you're curious my setup is: BAR-10, TK Twist, Firefly Soft, Laylax Pro Cylinder Head, Laylax SP100 spring. I've only sat down to test groupings in my backyard which is fairly small, measured to be around 75 feet from where I tested it to the target and my groupings were around 0.5" to 1".. 2 hitting practically the exact same spot.
Hope this helps, tell me how yours works out.
A pm from Mj23lj, on asr.
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Well I've upgraded everything apart from the Teflon Cylinder at the moment in my TM VSR.
I'm getting 210'+ chest size with .28/30g's (sits consistently on 311 with .28's and 308 with .30's)- so considering (like you know) it's around 330fps with .20g's, I am VERY impressed.
I have noticed however, obviously, it is REALLY effected by ANY wind.
Hope that's what you were looking for,
Thanks,
Alex (mj23lj)
A (maybe exaggerated a bit?) quote from a airsoft forum member.
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This topic is just frustrating to discuss anymore, I've installed and tweaked over 10 guns now with tanio koba twist barrels, and they do work, for anywhere upto 1 joule. We have a couple of stock AK47su's (gauder su kits) ak's that outrange and are more accurate then 400fps m4's with tightbores.
Test results from Von Luck, asf.
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Bravo! My goodness!!
I like data like this. Thank you for putting so much time and effort for such labor-intensive work! I sure do appreciate it. I like applying meanings to numbers like these. I am also glad that it also seems to prove that using heavier BBs improves, as much as using tight bores.
When I measure groupings, I measure the two shots that are farthest apart. That way, I get the widest possible reading. I can let myself think, "well it's 7 inches high, but width is only 2 inches, so it's as good as average 4.5 inches." If I conclude that that grouping is 4.5 inches (average of 2" and 7"), and shoot a target with a margine of error of 5 inches, the shot might land at 6 inch, and 7 inch line. I would miss my target.
Your grouping measures horizontal and vertical. For the simplications I looked at the biggest number and also averaged horizontal and vertical measurements.
By looking at the biggest numbers (either of horizontal or vertical) at 100 feet, and averages using 0.25g:
[1] TK Twist barrel 363mm x 6.04mm = 6.75" [5.687" Horizontal and vertical averaged]
[2] KM teflon 407mm x 6.04mm = 9" [8.625" H & V averaged]
[3] Prometheus 363 x 6.03mm = 9.5" (0.28g) [7.25" H & V avaraged]
[4] KM 300mm x 6.04mm =12.75" [10.125" H & V averaged]
This result is the same, TK comes on top, even if you take the average of horizontal and vertical, instead of taking the biggest number (althouth Prometheus becomes #2-but remember Prometheus used heaveier 0.28g BBs).
Aside from TK twist barrel, the longer the barrel, the more accurate it seems. Promotheus is a bit of disappointment since its 50' test was the better than TK. 9.5 inches seem a bit high, considering how tight 50' groupings were. If you think about it, how could a 2.85 inch grouping at 50 feet, becomes 9.5 inches at 100? I think it should be more like 8 inches, as average shows. It wouldn't change the fact that TK did best though. One way that might help is to discredit one shot that's farthest out of the group of shots. If you do that, Prometheus would come second and KT 407mm would be the third. But still, TK would be on top and the shortest KM 300mm would be still the last.
I hear TK barrel is supposed to work best for 1 Joule set-up, so 140 spring is probably over the top as it's about 1.3 joule. One of the links suggested that slowing down the fps by using heavier BBs does not seem to work with TK barrel. That link's conclusion was to have 1 Joule setting. Obviously I do not know if that's true or not. I don't have a TK barrel.
From your painstaking tests (thank you again), it seems like TK works pretty good, even for a 1.3 joule rifle. I mean, if you average horizontal and vertical measurements, CA stock's 50' 0.2g test and Km 300mm's 50' 0.2g test is little worse than TK 100 feet 0.25g test. Granted that TK's 100 feet test is with heavier 0.25g, but still, TK's 100' grouping is narrower than other barrel's 50' groupings?
Also compared to other 100 feet test's averages, TK barrel did almost 2 inches better (about 1.6 inch) than the second best. The second best, Prometheus used 0.28g, and it has 0.01mm tighter bore. TK did almost 3 inches tighter against longer 407mm barrel. This result still stands even if you don't include one of the wildest shots from each target.
Looking at the numbers you got, I am very impressed by TK twist barrel. It did better than longer barrel of same tightness. It did better than tighter barrel of same length. And it did better than even heavier BBs.
I am very impressed by the TK twist barrel.
Grady the Scot
I was searching for TK twist barrels on google and found this thread. I registered for this forum just to reply. I did my research on the twist for a couple of months before I bought one for my P90. I have got to tell you from the bottom of my heart, I LOVE THIS BARREL. I can easily get my little p90 shooting accurately out to 250' and with the awe inspiring amount of bullets it puts out I can bring the rain at 300'. This barrel makes me so happy every time I use it. With my fps down in the low 300's (320ish) I don't feel bad about shooting someone from up close (40'). This also puts little to no strain on my gearbox. I run with an insanely awesome rate of fire and my parts look brand new after 6 months of use. I just purchased a JG G-Spec and a KM head barrel. After reading this thread I am really stoked again. My roomate who owns a regular Bar-10 and is shooting at 500ish convinced me not to go with a twist but now I might just buy one to tell you guys what the difference is. I can't believe I didn't do this when I first bought the gun. The bb's do go really slow at 200' + but with little to know strain on the internals the action is silent and they will not hear it coming. The trajectory is so VERY predictable. I got one shot kills at 200'+ with my p90 and red dot scope. I have owned an M4 with a tightbore shooting 400+ and couldn't hit the same accuracy as the Twist. I unless something totaly awesome comes along I will be using the twist from now on.
As the feeling it goes, the reason the know they got hit by my p90 at 200+ is the noise. My p90 has a metal piston head and cylinder head as well as 20+ ROF which makes it really loud. The sniper however I'm not sure. I have read that because of wind friction an Airsoft bb' has a terminal velocity which means that a bb fired at 400 will quickly decelerate to low 300's or high 200s after about 75'. This means that at much closer ranges the 400+ fps rifle will hurt much more than a gun fired at 328 (1J), but out at 200+ the difference is almost nill. This terminal velocity also affects accuracy. The 400+ rifle will have comprable or a little better accuracy than the twist rifle at 100- but when the terminal velocity kicks in the tk will continue to go very strait whereas the inconsiscencies from bouncing bb's at 400fps will catch up with the faster firing rifle. Like when you spin a bowling ball. If you spin a bowling ball and throw it really fast it will go strait for a long way. It may even continue to go strait all the way into the pins, but if that bowling lane where 300' you would see the bowling ball go very strait until it slowed down due to friction ( which is very small on a bowling lane by the way) then it would curve sharply. For an airsofter who fires his high firing gun he has no idea that the barrel puts a spin or a wobble on his bb until it gets upwars of 100-200 feet then it starts to take effect.
Sorry this post is so long I'm just really excited. My hands are shaking. I just wish I could put it all down at once. So I just broke up that paragraph to tell make it look smaller and less like I was ranting. Going back to the last bit. The difference between a really fast shooting rifle 420+ and a tk twist rifle is brute force vs finesse'. So the brute uses the tightbore to force the bb into a tighter bounce pattern to minimize deviation from his flight path. He also uses a high fps (which tranlsates practically into more pushing power) to keep the bb straiter for longer. The deviations will hopefully not appear until after the bb has reached its target or due to the shear force of its forward momentum the kinks will have worked their way out of the flight path. It's like a follow through in sports. If you kick a soccer ball or throw a baseball or shoot a basketball your coach should tell you to follow through. This means you continue to swing your leg or move your arm in the same arc no matter if you are in contact with the ball or not. This gives you a half a second more contact with the ball which gives it more momentum in the direction you want it to go. A tap must be perfectly placed to send the ball in question to the correct spot. The bowling ball analogy is ok but breaks down at a certain point. When you spin the ball and throw it as hard as possible two things happen due to friction. The friction of the lane will slow down the spin and the roll of the ball so if the amount of the spin is much less than the speed of the ball, then the ball will be only slightly affected by it because by the time the friction has slowed the ball enough for the side spin to matter the side spill will be gone or very small. (wow that was probably the biggest run on sentence ever (I hope Crimson Falcon doesn't see)). So now we have the twist. The twist was engineered to give no spin to the bb at all (because of the air pockets). The only spin that should effect the bb is the hop-up unit (which is not affected by the barrel by the way). I have actually run out of analogies if you can believe it or not. I will be thinking of one for the twist. The difference is the twist is engineered to take all the variables out of the bb's trajectory (bouncing around in the barrel).
The only bad thing about the twist is that it was engineered for .2 gram bb's. This means that if you have a strong cross wind a heavier bb will work MUCH better. It will not lose gain a sideways spin as fast (just like the bowling ball). This makes a higher shooting rifle better, but don't snipers have to take wind into account for their longer shots also? If we are trying to be as much like real military snipers wouldn't we want to have to take into consideration the wind and which direction its blowing.
That is my $0.15. I hope you found it helpful. I am human and fallible so I might have gotten my facts wrong feel free to help me out. My point is VIVA LA TK Twist!
This was just taken from
http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/Tanio-Koba-Twist-Rifled-B-t147334.htmlThe twist barrel gives you several advantages. Your MED with a regular AEG AND a Marksman AEG will be the same. This means you can hit targets way out and be able to blast people from up close without hurting them. Using a M100 spring will also keep your aeg working longer, because it is not under much stress. Another thing is the TK Barrel COULD be the only upgrade you do. You don't have to change out any parts except for the spring which should be around and M100 stock. The barrel also gives you a higher ROF because you are only pulling an M100 versus an M120.
